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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1886
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 15:59:45 -
[1] - Quote
YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that there was a positive attitude about TSP's. I posted many times in that dev blog & there was a majority of people against it, commonly quoting a line from a CCP guy that said something along the lines of, paying extra money into eve should never give a skill advantage over someone with a regular subscription. The point was that you shouldn't be doing this. It's a terrible idea.
I am heavily against it. There is pages and pages of rage on that thread about people not liking this pay-to-win money grabbing attitude proposed by Eve-Online.
It was a done deal as soon as they did any serious work on a blog for it. I still dislike the idea and simply won't use it. If that puts me at a disadvantage for not buying my way to higher skills so be it.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:30:48 -
[2] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct. Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome. Current: Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character. Future: Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting. Future Tommy seems to have better options...
That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...' |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 16:43:20 -
[3] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Obil Que wrote: ...
Future Tommy seems to have better options...
That's exactly how drug pushers work, 'Tell you what I'll do I'll make the first one free, when you want some more just come back to me...' Is this what it comes down to, making our newbies dependent on our space state? Oh so you're saving them huh. I see...
I'm saving no-one, I left my cape and speedos in hisec.
This just strikes me as a means to extract money from new players (whilst inflating PLEX prices meaning more players will have to pay for game time more often). New players will not have the ISK to buy these injectors without paying more RL cash. The knock on effect will impact everyone. I would also be greatly surprised if the larger entities in game didn't use this to create swathes of perfect alts at sub-50 mil SP giving them an even bigger advantage over new starters.
This change won't impact me play wise as I already have the skills I need to do what I want in game. It may impact me in ISK terms but I'll live :) Had I been starting as a new player it still wouldn't impact me as I have patience, this scheme will be trading on the fact that many new players won't have or will feel the pressure to skill faster and therefore pay to do so. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:02:17 -
[4] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None. Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game.
And they are most likely heavily invested in continuing to play anyway so they won't care about this change. I doubt that many older players ( 2-3 years +) would quit over this since they are already invested in the game and play because they like it above other games. This mechanic will simply milk new players for more RL cash and benefit very space rich older players.
Note that I do not consider a new player paying however much for the PLEX to buy SP up to the entry point for a bigger alliance to be a benefit to them. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:13:34 -
[5] - Quote
Janwaar wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Querns wrote:Aerious wrote:What a waste of time and resources.
What use is this to a 2004 player with over 210m SP? None. Fortunately, there are only a handful of these sorts in the game. And they are most likely heavily invested in continuing to play anyway so they won't care about this change. I doubt that many older players ( 2-3 years +) would quit over this since they are already invested in the game and play because they like it above other games. This mechanic will simply milk new players for more RL cash and benefit very space rich older players. Note that I do not consider a new player paying however much for the PLEX to buy SP up to the entry point for a bigger alliance to be a benefit to them. i dont agree,i dont play due to all the changes ccp made to the game and it is only that i had paid for this account for a year that i can post,learned a lesson there i guess,once the year is up biomass can take me....and my stuff,so dont ask ponces..
They don't care so much about your stuff now that they can have your brainsssssss.... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1888
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 17:16:55 -
[6] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:... But I do think the genuinely new player (not just the alt of someone who probably also has 5 other alts and won't need all of them RIGHT NOW) is the one who benefits the most from just a single little boost of 500k SP.
They can't go and do something else... except train I guess. So it helps this particular edge a lot.
I think if that were true and this change wasa really intended to help new players then they would simply have given the 500 K SP on the starter character (allocated or unallocated). This is purely about making money through people buying PLEX to buy SP (and pushing up PLEX prices as a sideline, again benefiting the older players who can afford to stockpile them to sell later). |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1890
|
Posted - 2016.01.18 22:01:56 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:X Minx wrote:Sincerely really happy that CCP is implementing this. The present skill system needs a boost and Eve being such a long standing game can result in a skill tree that 'looks' like a grind too far as a new capsuleer.
Kudos for following through. One of the best things about eve is that its one of the few games left that doesn't cater to instant gratification
I have to say that 'following through' describes this mechanism perfectly... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1891
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 11:05:57 -
[8] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?
Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.
m
Doing anything to accommodate OCD actually makes it worse. The characters that remove skills should show the mental scars from doing so. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1893
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:25:42 -
[9] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.
Well, i don't see many people blowing up monuments in Jita over this, so i guess it's been accepted by the masses.
You see it as a good thing that the masses of players who have spoken against this can't even be bothered to protest? I see it as a sign that the existing community are losing the will to care. That is most definitely not a good thing. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1893
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:34:23 -
[10] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Tristan Agion wrote:[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why. Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector. So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.
What happened to PLEX last time they introduced something into the AUR store? I thought prices went up? |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1893
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:55:26 -
[11] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Yes, you can convert Plex into 3500 aurum (right click option) Or you can buy Aurum directly with RL money ( https://secure.eveonline.com/AurStore/ , generally a better deal than going through plex) My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.
A more immediate concern would be people asking ' I have to pay how much to even be considered useful???', rather than players taking the time to teach others how to be useful from day one. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1896
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 12:56:28 -
[12] - Quote
Pandora Bokks wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:How do you convert PLEX into AUR? Market, Aurum tokens. This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks. Actually this I knew. What I did not know, is that there is a direct conversion method as well (1 PLEX into 3,500 AUR) . You learn something new every day even after years of playing.
And what you didn't learn today you can now simply buy tomorrow... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1905
|
Posted - 2016.01.19 19:40:58 -
[13] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Sissy Fuzz wrote:Saisin wrote:King Aires wrote: So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
This is incorrect, it is just your opinion not the opinion of all high SPplayers It gives a skill leg-up to the younger players so that they reach the higher level of gameplay sooner, and this is good for everyone. An older player still have a lot more experience, network, contacts and assets in-game, and they also now can get ISKies from some bad or uninformed choices they made during their own skills development. What you really are saying is that you do not like that players that have started the game later than you will be able to catch up with you in term of skill points. It is like saying you do not like having 30 years old being able to do the same thing as 40 years old, is it not? Please tell, how is it good for everyone? Having younger players given the option to get into ships faster is good for retention, which in turn helps all of us as more players remain engaged with the game, and there is nothing worng with CCP making money of such option to continue make our game better. your turn now, tell me why you think it is not good for everyone?
Because many many people are saying it isn't good for them, therefore it isn't.
More specifically:
It degrades the loyalty of older players It milks new players for cash in the belief that buying SP means they will be better at the game It puts players who can't afford to buy SP at a disadvantage in terms of skills to those who can afford it It heavily favours space rich players It is the thin end of the wedge, just wait for the calls that it doesn't go far enough (we'll have World of Spaceships in the near future since taken to the extreme skills will become meaningless) Any of the myriad of reasons against this that were voiced in the not so overwhelmingly positive previous feedback thread.
You may think there is a degree of resigned sarcasm in most of my posts on this topic but really there isn't. It's more of a Masters, possibly even a PhD... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 11:54:36 -
[14] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Malou Hashur wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Also - old players that doesnt like new players to have an edge SP-wise, go mine in high-sec. Gaming-skillz are needed to play a game. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious (which you seem to have missed), us old players were once new players. We seemed to manage and are still here. Just grow a pair and skill up like we did. Lol - so its brave to have patience? Also - back then u were too blinded to complain, fapping away in spaceships :P - today gamers want dynamic and challenging gameplay - they dont want to sit and wait in order to fit w/e, or do w/e. WOW exists for people like you, go there. EVE used to be different but CCP are trying to change that. Lol using the WOW comment. Fact is - OLD PEOPLE DIE, and YOUNG PEOPLE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE... The gaming industry is all about young people - thats where the players are, and thats there the money is. In order for CCP to survive, they have to adapt to what gamers want (not old people - they die, ergo no moneyzz), and this means change of certain aspects of this game. In the old days EVE had spaceships - which entriuged people. Now alot of games has that (or they will deffinetly come within a year or 2), AAAAND dynamic, challenging and rewarding gameplay. Its a fact - change is needed. Im not doing the "EVE DYING"- argument, but everything changes - always. And if you cant adapt you die.
Average age of a 'gamer' is between 30 -38 by all accounts, I hardly class that as old! It's also the demographic that tends to prefer more visceral games rather than the instant gratification games preferred by the younger demographic. This seems to indicate a clear shift by CCP from longer term higher loyalty players to shorter term higher turnover players. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 11:56:44 -
[15] - Quote
Nakaara Adahsa wrote:
My expectation is that an eventual PLEX-for-skill-points mechanism in another year or so would replace the mechanism they are implementing now. Get players to accept a "skill point trading" scheme and then replace it with a "direct skill point buying" later on under the guise of making it more "convenient".
Do I know for certain this will happen? No, but it is the logical end-point if I were CCP and didn't care about players at all as long as a large enough minority buys enough PLEX to increase overall revenue. Their bet would be that most players will continue to subscribe despite griping and the minority that wants pay-to-win will buy more PLEX.
The logical endpoint is getting rid of skills all together. Welcome to World of Spaceships. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:48:22 -
[16] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming?
That was from a quick google where the articles quoted 30-38 as the low and high ends for gaming in general. Interestingly one of the articles pointed out that in general its people under ~20 and over ~30 playing but the average falls in between. Most polls tend to find what they want though which is why I took the lowest and highest age as most seemed to agree on that at least |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:55:18 -
[17] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Resubscribed recently and I'm super excited about this feature! Finally I can fix my skills and stop playing Skill Queue Online!
In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Here's a thought! Hard the Flip Up! You silly ninnies whine about everything. I remember the moaning about removing clone grades and we got through that just fine.
The problem comes when people who like the game get fed up of being ignored about changes such as this and really do just give up. Then the game suffers. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 13:58:41 -
[18] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Funny how the devs already abandoned the thread. One would think they at least address some of the voiced concerns which where already raised in the last thread and tell us why it is not a problem. Apparently, CCP have devoted most of their interaction to, and got the feedback they wanted to hear from Reddit, or whatever it is called. That CCP do not use their own forums or pay heed to the feedback therein much, is just sad really.
This bugs me too, these forums as far as I understand are current subbed players only, i.e. the opinions of those actually playing the game. You can only like a post and not actively beat i down (other than by arguing your point).
Reddit is a forum for anyone (whether active or not) and can be manipulated through aggressive downvoting of any post (no matter how well reasoned) that does not fit with the view of the largest group with the most to benefit from any given change.
Doesn't strike me as a smart way to gather feedback. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1913
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 14:00:35 -
[19] - Quote
Amanda Orion wrote:Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: In hindsight, it is funny how a lot of people say they are done with EVE because of Skill Trading but I've yet to spot anyone in Doomheim on this thread.
Some people just quietly unsubscribe. And sadly, some of them who are used to paying 3 or 6 months at a time, still have several months prepaid, so the subscribed numbers may not immediately show the fall.
Conversely there will also be a group of players who will play out their pre-paid time and then not resub leading to drops in numbers 3, 6, 9, and 12 months down the line when people won't even remember why. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1915
|
Posted - 2016.01.20 15:29:54 -
[20] - Quote
SoapyTits wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:SoapyTits wrote:Now is that 30 - 38 in eve or in general gaming? That was from a quick google where the articles quoted 30-38 as the low and high ends for gaming in general. Interestingly one of the articles pointed out that in general its people under ~20 and over ~30 playing but the average falls in between. Most polls tend to find what they want though which is why I took the lowest and highest age as most seemed to agree on that at least Now - that makes more sence then - and it also makes my argument more true. Stooooopiiiid to bring up such numbers without explaining!
Please do explain how this backs up your 'argument', preferably without insults (that aren't even spelt correctly :) ) |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1924
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 11:30:35 -
[21] - Quote
One point that occurred to me earlier: This is making ISK for absolutely no risk at all: Set up an alt in Jita/Dixie/hub of your choice, plug in +5's and remap to max on two attributes, train/extract rinse repeat. sell on the market. At absolutely no point int this cycle is the SP farm character at any risk in any way.
So much for risk vs. reward |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1924
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 12:08:49 -
[22] - Quote
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:One point that occurred to me earlier: This is making ISK for absolutely no risk at all: Set up an alt in Jita/Dixie/hub of your choice, plug in +5's and remap to max on two attributes, train/extract rinse repeat. sell on the market. At absolutely no point int this cycle is the SP farm character at any risk in any way.
So much for risk vs. reward Well there is some risk -- the risk that any trader has. What you're describing has a reasonably high upfront cost that you're gambling you'll be able to make back. You could buy your PLEX, train the character, extract the skillpoints and the market could crash so you can't sell them back for the PLEX cost. That might happen because the PLEX cost goes up so much that the skillpacks cost more than people will pay or because so many people do this that the price of skillpacks hits a floor so it takes years to make back the cost of getting those alts to the 5M skillpoints they need to have before they can start producing. Or it might just be that you're competing against people ripping from an old alt who don't have the cost of actually training new skills that you do. Not all risk is the risk of getting blown up.
On the assumption that 4 skill packs costs more than PLEX+extractors of course, otherwise why would anyone do it? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1924
|
Posted - 2016.01.22 21:10:59 -
[23] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Algarion Getz wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:if i can mine 5b in the 2 weeks it took me to train to mining barge. then thats proof a new player can afford to buy skill injectors to speed it up.
the only combat ships i really have are hurricane...and kestrel of coarse(but kestrel isn't worth much in low sec....unless u want to die)
P.S. i mostly operate out of a wormhole.... wat 5b mined in a Venture in 2 weeks? How many h/day? Whats the ISK/h? What do you mine exactly? variety of stuff we find in the wormhole. have an orca to hold it(not mine). plus i can use mining drones due to the fleet protection. that 5b is also including the isk from the sleeper drones who come at us and drop those lovely high priced drops. and even higher priced salvage.
And how many new players would know how to find a reliable WH group who will take someone completely unknown and give them full orca support whilst sharing the sleeper loot with you that you did nothing to destroy?
Most new players will spend the first few weeks trawling through hisec learning the absolte basics from the careers. This idea dangles the idea of paying to progress in front of them at the time when they are most likely to wave a credit card at the game. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1934
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 11:37:41 -
[24] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I do still find it interesting that so many have an issue with this and claim it's breaking promises because you can "bypass" time/isk with it, but ignore the fact that that is fully enabled by PLEX, something that has been bypassing earning isk for years yet is very rarely spoken against. PLEX needed to happen, because people will buy isk no matter what, so it's a necessary evil that combats RMT ie something that is acceptable ONLY because you have to have it. The Character Bazaar is also such a thing (because people will buy characters/accounts no matter what you do) and is acceptable because it's somewhat horrible to deal with. The skill point trading thing crosses a line. The Character Bazaar has serious limits (and again, is just a necessary evil) so it's ok, this thing is not. Smart developers don't try to expand and legitimize necessary evils in a bid for more money. There is literally no pressing reason for this feature other than a desire for more revenue for the company. It would be the same with PLEX. PLEX for game time and the few other things it's expanded into is fine, but taking plex and modifying it (like breaking it into smaller "plex tokens" for example), expanding it into too many other things and such, that would cross a line too, just like this SP trading is. CCP is playing with fire here. It's almost as if the lessons of monocle-gate/incarna have worn off. We may have to teach them the lessons again, and I'm hearing grumblings from several corners along those lines.
So both PLEX and the character bazaar were necessary evils to curbe RMT. The fact that people are using necessary evils to justify this (in my view) unecessary change says everything you need to know about the incoming change.
And no I'm not quitting the game, I'll adapt as ever. Doesn't improve my view on this though! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1934
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 11:57:44 -
[25] - Quote
My view on 'It doesn't change the game because character bazaar':
1) I dislike immenesely the idea of the character bazaar.
2) building a character over time based on training choices was a central concept right at the heart of this game. It required time, planning and some research. That is now being removed which in my view is a pretty major change in the concept of the game.
I also don't for one second think that this will be enough for people (classic thin end of the wedge). Players who are happy to buy there way in will simply keep asking for more.
Whilst this change doesn't affect the mechanics of the game it will very heavily affect how people play the game. Good or bad remains to be seen. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1937
|
Posted - 2016.01.23 22:42:46 -
[26] - Quote
Cien Banchiere wrote:Sarina Aideron wrote:Why was there no poll about this change? Skill trading is a fundamental change to EVE's skill system, that every player should know about. Is CCP afraid they can't sugar coat this (seemingly) unpopular change with fancy marketing language when there are clear stats about its popularity? This is something I am curious about too. Clearly the replies CCP talks of are not the ones I've read here or reddit
It was a done deal when they realeasd the first blog. There was no point in taking a poll as then it would have to be ignored even more blatantly. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1946
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 09:25:09 -
[27] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:mercesedis wrote:Personally I think this is a change that needs to happen for new player access.
For me however I wont have to wait till 2022 to get that last combat skill on my main. Instead I will simply buy the 1000 odd injectors to get me the rest of the way to 326 million skill points, Its expensive but hey its only isk. Don't think I will buy the other 1000 to get to 448 million but maybe I will, after all I can dock the titans up.....
On second thoughts CCP please put in a hard cap on sp's and/or the number of injectors you can use. CCP limited the number of remaps for a reason well limit the number of skill injectors.
But hey this is just my two cents, I am sure this wont be the end of EVE.
Just the end of that anticipation you get when the new ship or module becomes available in 12hs. even now when i can fly most ships i still get that feeling and that enjoyment of taking a new ship out (or an old ship with improved performance) for the first time after the weeks of training. With that simplification of entry level i think they should get rid of t1 stuff as a whole class since we are all focus on better performance where t2 and higher meta are.
More people buying skills = more demand for tech II = more moon goo demand...no wonder the null groups like this idea. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1948
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 10:22:29 -
[28] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:More people buying skills = more demand for tech II = more moon goo demand...no wonder the null groups like this idea. So you think they're assuming EvE players all have a great abundance of playtime to grind isk and/or thousands of dollars to spend making that actually work out in any appreciable manner? Or further that with the games SP system and near 13 years of veteran training that they aren't already reaping the rewards of a largely T2 dependent playerbase?
I'm not assuming anything here but do believe that CCP are hoping for new players to whip out the CC to get into tech II frigs and cruisers faster. As you say not every application is suited to tech II ( I love my gila with fed navy drones for instance), but new players will most likely not know this and assume higher tech = better.
As for the vets already reaping the rewards of moon goo do you really think they wouldn't be in favour of even a 10% increase in demand?
Note that I expect a likewise upward pressure on use of tech III too. Whilst yhis would benefit me as a tech III manufacturer I still intensely dislike the whole SP trading idea |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1948
|
Posted - 2016.01.24 11:08:17 -
[29] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:I came to the realization of "big picture" behind this Skill Trade feature. Its World of Darkness set in EVE Online! Imagine all those poor alts sucked dry of skill points for their main overlords. ...dark times ahead for some.
More like 'Return of the Living Dead'...BRAINZZZZZZZZ! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:49:29 -
[30] - Quote
Filip Ernaga wrote:As a new player I'll just state that I like this idea, and it will keep me in game.
This is because it will help me with all the skills I just HAVE to train, which have no impact on game itself. Things like cpu/pg 5, wu 5, awu3-4 and such do not enable me to get any different weapons/mods and really just sink time while I stagnate with same ship/fit for a few months already.
So yeah, either remove that stuff just like you removed learning skills (I would suppose people were whining about how necessary those are back then. just like they whine how sp trading will kill the game today) or let me invest my hard earned isk in SP ... thank you :)
This is not about dumbing the game down, it opens a LOT more options to players who came in only recently and would actually be in position where they can make a difference.
I have a question: How many SP do you as a new player feel you need to 'be effective'?
This will allow us to then determine a cost for that 'effectiveness' based on the assumption that 4 injectors will cost 1 PLEX + ~20% profit.
I'm interested to see how much extra a new player is expected to pay above their initial sign up cost. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:51:32 -
[31] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:EVERYONE WILL BE BETTER THAN YOU FOR A SIX PACK OF PLEX
Everyone is better than me at PvP even after a straight forward 6-pack. Don't give the more SP as well please! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 10:54:23 -
[32] - Quote
Oh and while I'm posting I'm copyrighting the phrase 'Let us do the training, so you don't have to...' right here.
Any in game mass SP farm that wishes to use the tagline can do so for a mere 5% of SP they generate sales for by using it :) |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1960
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 11:47:56 -
[33] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:I have a question: How many SP do you as a new player feel you need to 'be effective'? Strong specialisation on one thing, about 2M-5M SP. But frankly, that's not very realistic for a real newbie (like yours truly a few months ago), that's more an experienced player training an alt for a job. I think a newbie's main char (like this one) needs about 10M-15M SP, so that it is on one hand "well rounded" (has all the basic skills, has allowed the newbie to explore a lot of game content somewhat seriously, gives access to many sub-cap ships) and on the other hand has some serious investment in a further specialisation / strength to set up a future career. And I would say that's about double the SP you actually get, i.e., in the time that it takes a newbie to sort out what he wants to do next, they will probably have about 5M-8M SP.
Disclaimer: This is in no way a dig at you, but rather I wanted a genuine new players view on what is required to be 'efective'
So at ~ 2 mil SP per PLEX + 20% that's 6 - 8 PLEX cost? That's -ú90 as a six pack here in the UK. -ú90 on top of the initial sign up fee to become 'effective'...and people are saying this is 'good' for new players???
Note: I in no way agree that it takes this much SP for a player to be 'effective'. A player can add dps to any fleet and be useful, if you get primaried (as a new player in a relatively small ship) in anything beyond small gang fights you are going to die whether you are in t1 or bling fit pirate ships so it doesn't make that much difference for a new player who decides (for instance) to join spectre fleets for PvP experience or similar.
Likewise in a supply chain a new player can make the tech I/bulk items to help the more experience manufacturer further up the chain and so on. It is not the number of SP as such that holds new players back, it's getting in with the right kind of corp for that player. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1965
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 13:39:31 -
[34] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote: First, while a new player could simply spend -ú90 outright, I think in most cases it is going to be (a) more gradual, and (b) partly self-financing via increased ISK earnings. Basically, you will hit a roadblock in your progression, and buy one or two injectors to get over it. Now, if it turns out that this improvement was in fact worth it, then your ISK take will increase and the next time you want to get a skill bump you might actually have the ISK to pay for it.
Second, the alternative is what precisely? Well, waiting six months. Now, what is worse depends on your situation. But the assumption that every newbie will be totally fine with waiting for six months until they can get what they want in a game is just silly. And the endless mantra of how wonderful "delayed gratification" is and how important this is for true EVE spirit is - best I can tell - a kind of Stockholm syndrome.
I hardly class myself as a vet.
I never once waited for a skill to complete before playing the game, I simply played with the skills I had whilst others trained. As a new player these are all pretty much low multiplier skills that don't take that long anyway and would typically complete before you next log in.
So which is it? You need 10-15 mill to be effective or you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills? If you need that 10-15 mill then you'd better pay the -ú90+ straight up (that's a conservative estimate by the way, almost certainly it would be higher).
If you can be effective incrementally as you train up skills then cerebral accelerator implants built in game by players would have been a better choice. But then that wouldn't increase revenue in the same way would it? Even if it would be better for a new player too.
Tristan Agion wrote: And that's why you haven't been training since you hit 2M SP. You just forgot about the skill queue, because it didn't really matter for anything you wanted to do. Right? I don't believe a vet who tells me that SP "doesn't matter" but has nice implants, a fully stacked skill queue and pretty much the maximum number of skill points one can have with their subscription time. That's just bovine excrement.
I never forgot about the skill queue as it was (before this change) a part of the game to create and grow your character. Soon the space or RL rich will be able to circumvent that to a degree which diminishes the game in my view. I also never fixated on being perfect at any career. I trained the necessary skills to level III or IV as required and just got on with the game in the meantime. As I determined whether I wanted to go further with that career I specialized some training into it whilst learning how to use the lower level skills to their maximum effect. Never once have I not logged in due to a skill training.
Anybody who tells a player they have to set skills to train then logout for an amount of time is telling them an outright lie.
Tristan Agion wrote:...I can run. But I cannot win a gold medal in running in the local sports competition, much less in the Olympics....
To use your example: You can run 100m in say 12 s, the guy who beats you can run it in 11.5s. Now he can run 200m in 25s, but you and your similar standard friend relay that distance and complete it in 24s. This is the heart of EvE, you need friends to compete. The 5% you mention does make a difference, but it doesn't mean you can't compete. I am in no way a perfect tech III manufacturer yet I can turn a good profit. Someone with perfect skills will get 5-10% more profit than me but I don't care about that, I care that my profit is enough for me.
Players really need to focus on what they can do now and have fun with it whilst planning for what they want to do in future. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1965
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 14:41:27 -
[35] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote: first off
cash for skill? you mean the Bazaar? why do you guys hate skill injectors while ignoring the character bazaar
even without the character bazaar, there was account selling.
so why are you against skill injectors? while ignoring whats RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.
skill injectors will cost more per SP than the character bazaar.
and no, i won't threaten to quit. i'll be using the t3 destroyer to join the corp on military missions. aka stuff that a kestrel can't do.
not to mention, i can PLAY THE GAME to earn currency to buy skill injectors to speed up the training.
You seem to know quite a bit about various aspects of the game for a new player.
Most people against this idea dislike the character bazaar. Using a necessary evil to justify a change tells you all you need to know about that change.
Injectors will provide unallocated SP and so are much more valuable than a character off the bazaar with fixed skill layout.
A pirate ship will probably do all you wanted from the T3. If you are ISK rich enough for these injectors you are certainly ISK rich enough to use pirate ships in the meantime (many are much better than their tech II counterparts anyway).
Somebody has to pay the RL money for you to buy PLEX in game for the injectors, if new money doesn't come into the game then all that will happen is PLEX inflation and older space rich players (or RL rich players) will hoover up all the SP initially extracted.
Whilst I'm not one to quote Malcanis Law all the time in this case I believe it will very much apply. *If* this is good for new players (I don't believe it is in any way) then it'll be a damn sight better for older/rich players. The diminishing returns will not affect this as to the truly space rich paying more means absolutely nothing.
so instead of sitting on my ass waiting for the skill que, i can PLAY to speed it up[/quote]
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1968
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:07:48 -
[36] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:
yes skill injectors are unallocated. hence them costing more isk per SP than the characer bazaar. and with players controlling the market, the price can go up extremely high if players so choose.
and yes i could use a pirate ship. except again, its 2 weeks of training for support skills like gunnery, motion prediction and so on. not to lv 5 mind ya. but to lv 3-4. and lv 5 electronics..... plus pirate ships cost alot more. and while right now i don't blind blowing a few up. in the future, i expect i wont look as favorably on that.
yes intially i expect the older richer players will hog all the SP initially extracted. which is why i suspect that when it first launches, players will price SP very high (on par with plex). and as demand drops, the price will drop.
Its a market economy. demand and supply. price and demand. after the initially boom it will settle into a price level that majority of players are happy with.
and as i said numerous times now, if you have a problem with it. make a suggestion to a fix. not "remove it"
but instead something like
"limit how often u can inject SP" "limit how often you can extract SP" "what the AUR price should be" "what the diminishing return for high total SP characters should be"
and so on.
The 2 weeks of training up skills for a pirate ship (I doubt it is that long to be honest for all level III's/IV's) would be taken up with you learning how to actually make use of those skills if you are a genuine new player. As for cost I thought you made several bil in your forst 2 weeks by mining? Pirate ships should be peanuts for you then.
Older players won't just hog the SP, they will control the market and decide the price of them forever more.
I do not suggest how to fix this mechanic as that would be an implicit acceptance of it. Of course it's coming as CCP won't back down but I won't justify the idea myself by saying how it could be made 'better' when I simply don't believe it can.
This is absolutely not the way to help new players and will fail in doing so. It will however help CCP's bottom line (whilst causing huge changes in the market potentially but what does that matter?). |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1968
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:09:25 -
[37] - Quote
Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL
Oh dear... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:28:35 -
[38] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right? correct. so for the vast majority of people, skill injectors do nothing that the character bazaar doesn't. they will cost more per SP. but they will me ideal for small boosts of SP rather than buying a whole new character. even if your limited to 2 injections per 6 months, thats fine. and would be great for new characters.
2 injections would be 1 mil SP i.e. 2 weeks training time, that will not make a difference in terms of the amounts players seem to think they require (10-15 mil SP) so such a limit would destroy the idea that this is to help anyone, let alone new players. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Aerious wrote:Talk with your main (Anabuki Tomoko), since you bought this character 2 weeks ago. New Player LOL lol character bazaar, am I right? correct. so for the vast majority of people, skill injectors do nothing that the character bazaar doesn't. they will cost more per SP. but they will me ideal for small boosts of SP rather than buying a whole new character. even if your limited to 2 injections per 6 months, thats fine. and would be great for new characters. 2 injections would be 1 mil SP i.e. 2 weeks training time, that will not make a difference in terms of the amounts players seem to think they require (10-15 mil SP) so such a limit would destroy the idea that this is to help anyone, let alone new players. oh? give a new player 2 injectors how much of a boost to what they are able to do would that give them? maybe not to high SP players. but to new players, 1mill SP opens up alot more doors to what they are able to do.
Not really as it would take them the two weeks of training time to learn what to do with the skills they have whilst training in the meantime. If this was to really help new players and 1 mil extra SP would do tha then the starter character would come with those SP out of the box. This is about making money and nothing else and it may well horribly backfire and just funnel any SP generated up to the top level of players.
Ed: Quick use case that pops into mind. A new player thinks "I'll buy two SP packs and put them into mining so I can make isk" then realizes 3 days in that they hate mining. What do they do then? Stop training down that route and switch to something else? Oh wait, that doesn't get them the 1 mil SP back though does it? Next up will be remaps for ISK to fix these types of problems. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:... having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing.
Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less. |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:45:22 -
[41] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Hmm that applies only to highsec mission running, though. It's a terrible idea to put deadspace mods on a PVP ship in all new player PVP situations (e.g. RvB, FW, null starter corps, etc.)
In all new player PvP having people buying there way in with SP so they can fly tech II rather than tech I sound awfully P2W (in this instance). And if primaried you will die whether in tech I or tech iI.
The main problem seems to be players telling new players what they can't do rather than showing what they *can* do. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1969
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 15:46:27 -
[42] - Quote
Anabuki Tomoko wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Anabuki Tomoko wrote:... having you buy skill injectors gives new players something to strive for. something to save up to buy. something to play for. instead of w8ing. Pirate ships and deadspace modules already provide this, probably more cheaply and with much higher bonuses than the few skills 1 mil SP gets you. This is about money, nothing more, nothing less. pirate ships requiring SP to use, and use effectively (for example, astero. you'll need drone skills, electronic, cloak, covert ops. how about garmur. you'll need shield skills, missiles velocity and signature radius. etc) now what can 1mill SP get you? as a new player. 1mill SP can get you quiet alot of skills. enough to train up to be decent in a t2 or t1 shield of cruiser or lower.
Again you aren't exactly talking like a new player here...A truly new player would not know which skills are required to make a ship work as well as it can, they would be taking the time training to learn how these skills work. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1983
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 10:19:17 -
[43] - Quote
MajorBean wrote:- The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis.
I'm guessing that whoever developed this idea thinks it doesn't break this promise since when you buy SP you are buying someone elses invested time (transferring advantage as opposed to buying new advantage???).
If so they should consider a career in politics... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1985
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 12:41:08 -
[44] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:... as mentioned above all of that is already possible droping some isk on a character from the bazaar only difference is this new system will cost a crap ton more (player controlled market and all) and reduce in efficiency rapidly the higher the sp goes. also gankers are not gonna use this to train their gank alts up faster unless they really have to much money or isk and hate waiting. since they can just use throw away trial act's over and over and not even have to bother subbing them (sure its against the rules but ccp never catches them so they do it anyway)
training will still be far more valuable since this system wont create sp from thin air some one still has to train it first. and the cost of the skill injectors will prolly be so insanely high that it would be cheaper to buy a char instead so over all this has no real impact on the game outside of the character bazaar and redistributing isk within the economy.
The issues I have with the idea (beyond simply removing any character building element from the game or at the very least heavily degrading it) is that it will not help new players as claimed but will almost certainly funnel most of the SP generated up to the space rich who already play the game.
This allows for the already accrued SP in existing characters to be drained away into the hands of those with the most ISK. Whether they just inject them (just to be the first to max SP) or it is a larger nullsec group simply controlling the market whilst ensuring all alts have perfect skills for their niche ensuring that other groups are at a bigger disadvantage.
As far as large ISK rich nullsec groups go they would be stupid not to do this, they would control the market whilst gaining a bigger advantage. Note that I don't have a problem with these groups doing this if they are playing within the rules (again, they would be stupid not to), but rather with a mechanic being introduced that allows them to do so.
This will not in my opinion help new players at all. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1994
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 20:58:07 -
[45] - Quote
Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk.
ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1996
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 22:53:54 -
[46] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Zappity wrote:No limits please.
It is not pay to win. You cannot purchase SP for cash. You can buy SP with isk, exactly as you can buy a high SP character with isk. ISK comes from people buying PLEX ultimately (or in this case certainly can) so now you can buy SP for cash. SP is not created de novo so you cannot 'buy SP for cash'. You must purchase it from another player, exactly as per the character bazaar. This also adds a new SP sink which I think is a good thing. And ISK does not come from people buying PLEX. ISK comes from ratting, insurance and other faucets, not PLEX.
An ISK or RL rich player can buy SP, irrespective of where it comes from. sure no net SP are added to the game but the rich will be able to accumulate SP faster than the less well off.
This isn't pay to win as there isn't really a win in EvE beyond goals you set yourself, put it is definitely pay-for-advantage and the rich will exploit and control it as best they can at the expense of the less rich. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2002
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 00:39:11 -
[47] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Tiddle Jr wrote:Yaasmine wrote:as Scott says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0M7jkv3xkQ his 60mill SP character can be beaten by a 10mill SP character depending on what ship/build both are using. (though a 60mill SP character vs a 1mill SP character who can't use the basic weapons....would be a pretty big stretch. it's just lol honestly a 60 m SP toon got beaten by 10m SP toon, so i didn't get the thing, who is going to buy SP injectors? Scott? To nake sure he wont be beaten be lil guy? With same success 1m SP catalyst pilot would own 10m SP peacefull miner. Meaning this lil guy doing more than well. 1mill you can't use much in the way of weapons, ships, systems, or such. 10mill. your pretty decently set up in several ships 1 mil SP is the couple of injectors you said should be enough for a new player but here you say it doesn't get much? 10 mil would be 20 packs...not cheap... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2008
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:15:57 -
[48] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:ViolentDesire wrote:Yaasmine wrote: which is why you use MULTIPLE sources
reddit, facebook, various youtube videos, fanfest.
all positive.
There is a difference in relevance. Voting should primarily be based on a valid eve account. Accuracy is clearly not a concern if those are the sources they have. valid eve accounts aka, alts which also fails to take the opinion of potential future players. or players who are taking a break from EVE OR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T LOGGING ON CAUSE SKILL QUE ONLINE ONLY NEEDS THEM ONCE A MONTH
If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game
You can play eve wiyh any level of skills, with minimal skills you can take part in any of the starter careers but you will lose in pvp often. This would be playing the game . However now you can pay for skills to win more often. This is what bothers people.
A note on polls: they can be very very wrong. In the last election in the UK every poll said it would be a hung parliament. Every single one, without exception. They were all wrong and the party they all said would come second actually had a clear win.
Polls mean very very little depending on how they are taken.
Whether this change will help the game remains to be seen ( I think not but everyone is entitled to there own view). Charging new players another PLEX or two in SP packs is definitely not my idea of helping them though. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2009
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 00:03:40 -
[49] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: If a player doesn't log in because of the skillqueue they chose the wrong game
CCP doesn't agree which is why skill injector is becoming a thing. CCP wants people to undock and play more. and play "skill que online" less, where they don't logg in or undock.
CCP wants more money, they are a business so no problem there, just don't dress it up as for the new players... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2014
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 09:57:54 -
[50] - Quote
Yaasmine wrote:... then don't dress it up as game is dead or going to die.
I never have, I've said I think it is a bad idea, that it isn't going to help new players unless you class charging them more as being good for them, and that I believe only the wealthy will benefit from this. Never once have I said 'EvE is dying *runs around waving arms in the air*...'
Yaasmine wrote:... or purely a move for money.
If they wanted to help new players and believed skills were the problem they would simply give every new character a stack of unallocated SP upfront and tell them to run the career paths before assigning them (or assign them at their own risk). They would not be charging them more at the first perceived hurdle in the game
Yaasmine wrote: money is a motive for any business. but this isn't just for money(otherwise it wouldnt be sellable for isk), they trying to fix some issues in game at the same time.
and seeing as how its encouraging people to play, rather than set a que and logg off for a month. it is helping new players.
If these had been introduced as player built items in game then maybe it would be for the benefit of active in game players, but it isn't. It's for the money it will generate and I have no problem with a business doing that. I just dislike the way they are doing it (as in this idea).
As for helping new players what happens when they buy skill packs that they can afford ( say 2 PLEX worth, an extra -ú30 or so). Then they can fly frigs well and maybe some destroyers but now they want tech III cruisers. So what now? They just throw more money in to get to those? Or set the skill queue for the much longer train required and log of as you suggest they do now? If you give someone something easily they will simply want more equally easily.
Yaasmine wrote: a new player might never earn enough to buy a skill injector. but having the motive of saving up for one, causes them to play the game, and thus stay engaged as they discover new things, and improve the game for others by having more people in the universe.
if they manage to earn enough for a skill injector, or get donated one by a corporation thats looking to recruit. then thats a major help for them.
so its not just a money move. its also a move to improve the game.
If a new player might never earn enough for an injector they have already failed the claimed intention of them. f they can't afford one then how would they be incentivized to play the game whilst waiting to earn isk instead of log off and wait for skills as you say they do now? (considering they won't have the skills to earn the isk in their eyes until the queue has run through).
As you say rich groups may be able to donate them but that is exactly the point I make above. Only the wealthy (whether it be individuals or groups) will benefit from this.
So just to be clear:
I don't think this will kill the game necessarily I don't think it is a good idea I don't think it will function as claimed to benefit new players I don't think it's a good idea to mess around with the core of the game in this way.
I do think it will benefit the wealthy, any new players who get anything from this would be an odd kind of collateral benefit |
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2017
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 11:44:23 -
[51] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Cash for skills wil not break the game, but it does seriouly alter one of the underlying pillars upon which the game was founded.
This is one of my major concerns with this idea, it fundamentally changes the game I signed up to play. Ho-Hum, I'll just see how it all pans out and wait for CyberPunk 2077 :D (Seriously, check the trailer for that...)
Note: This isn't an I'm going to quit type post, just that I'm now looking forward to other games alongside EvE, whereas before I only really played EvE. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2031
|
Posted - 2016.01.30 08:50:28 -
[52] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:Another thing I just realized.
The race is on. Which Trillionair will be the first to have all skills in eve trained to Lvl5. Until now it wasn't even possible. It has not been possible on one character. But it is naive to think that these trillionaires does not have access to all skills divided between alts now. Especially with the character bazar and all. People assume it is an advantage to have everything on one char but it is not really imo, as you cannot do all activities at once in this case. If you multibox more chars it is more powerfull. So I would rather expect to see more alts when SP trading arrives
Just wait until we reach a tipping point in terms of perfect alts online. Then we'll start getting moe and more calls to get rid of skills all together...'for the newbies' of course... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2035
|
Posted - 2016.01.31 22:25:22 -
[53] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:The logic that cash for skills does not equal 'pay to win' must also mean that the famed 'gold ammo' would also not be 'pay to win' as there is no 'win' in Eve Online.
Again, I would refer all to my example of two new players starting on day one.
Player one cannot afford to buy skills whereas player two can and does so funded by real life cash.
Are some folk seriously trying to argue that player two will not have a clear, broadly speaking, in-game advantage over player one funded by cash?
It is clearly 'Pay-for-advantage' rather than P2W on an individual level (all skills for any career top out at V's of course). Where it becomes P"W is that the player with more wealth can have all V's in many career's much more rapidly.
Worse than this is the impact on big/wealthy alliances. They can now provide SP-SRP for tech III cruisers, or SP packs to perfect PvE skills in return for rental charges. This can only be bad for smaller alliances and corporations.
This is of course ignoring the removal of the character creation side of the game. And where would the tipping point be for the ratio of all V's characters (per career) and new players before they cry 'Get rid of skills all together!' I can't help but think this will be the thin end of the monetization wedge but we'll see in time. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2035
|
Posted - 2016.02.01 11:24:42 -
[54] - Quote
Natsuko Kanami wrote:Kate S'jet wrote:With that, as far as SPT mechanics are concerned. Has CCP considered that by introducing this feature that it may compete with +1 - +5 implants. As the whole purpose of those implants are to speed up SP training. This could make the implants redundant or obsolete, as pilots especially PvP pilots could see this as being risk averse impacting the volume of +1 - +5 implants being traded on the market. Don't confuse the multi-purpose implants where they will always have a place in Eve, well at least for now. They won't be redundant or obsolete, they will still be a viable option for passively speeding up your skill training, especially if you don't want to use this upcoming travesty on principle, but even if you do use it. ....
I seem to remember a while back lots of nullsec people complaining about attribute implants and saying that they should be removed as they allowed people in hisec to more safely boost their training rate compared to PvP pilots in null.
I don't notice them complaining about this mechanic ( they very much support it) whereby the wealthy can perfectly safely increase their training rate simply by buying (or being given) SP a chunk at a time... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2040
|
Posted - 2016.02.02 16:10:07 -
[55] - Quote
Kudoku wrote:...
would make sense to base it on sp/month. let's say it's one plex per month. on plex is 1.2bil isk at the moment. one plex gives you one month of play time. i think i heard somewhere that sp/month is about 1mil without implants. so figure 510mil/500kSP probably.
I wonder if there's much point basing any price guesstimates on PLEX since when this hits the PLEX price is going to bounce around like a punk with ADHD at a Sex Pistols gig.
It'll take months most likely before prices for this settle (in my view to what the large alliance powers want it to be). It'll take months after that to see the impact on the wider market (which could be large) and on the player base (depending on whether those who have pre-paid 3, 6, 12 months on their accounts actually do quit).
In short this seems like a huge gamble to me for monetary gain. I hope I'm wrong about that but only time will tell. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2042
|
Posted - 2016.02.03 16:48:03 -
[56] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote:I don't think the Devs are going to release the price until the launch as if we know the price, it would cause a minor dip in the economy as people buy PLEX in mass.
Not to mention people would either complain its to expensive for the amount of SP given, or to cheap. Regardless of the price there will be people complaining, and people happy.
Best they can do is leave it a mystery until launch so people can't prepare, and thus lessen the launch day influx, and delay the cries of the people who are dissatisfied with the price until its already out.
Wise? Yes and no. Common Tactic by companies? Yes.
The wealthy will be happy either way I think, if they are cheap then they'll buy loads, if they are expensive then they become a valuable commodity and they'll buy them just the same (whilst others can't afford them), |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2043
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 18:41:54 -
[57] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:... Whats next after skill trading? Probably more pay for advantage! CCP selling blueprints for gold ammo? No problem after skill trading! You can use the same reasons to justify it. "Its not P2W because players create it." "Its not P2W because everyone can grind ISK for a PLEX and convert it to AUR to buy golden ammo blueprints."
This is SP trading, not fully packaged skill trading...that's probably next on the list
My concern isn't necessarily about people buying skill points (though I loathe the idea for the many reasons already put forward),
rather it's that this is absolutely not for new players. Sure some will whip out the credit card and buy some, but only those left over that the large power blocks don't buy up. Also since when has taking more money off someone because they are new been good for them?
These will be bought, stockpiled and used as a strategic asset by big/rich groups. Other than that they will be used by players to shuffle SP between alts, either way this will directly impact PLEX price, which will impact the rest of the market. This is ignoring the secondary effects on the market of suddenly perfect skilled miners, mission runners, incursion runners, explorers and manufacturers. This change will affect just about everything to some degree.
We'll wait and see what it does to player numbers, but I doubt it'll massively increase retention of genuinely new (not returning) players.
People accepting monetization because they can benefit from it (probably by using a reserve of in game ISK already acquired) seems very short sighted to me. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2043
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 19:22:29 -
[58] - Quote
Lasisha Mishi wrote: waffles or death!
If I ever form an alliance I'm using that for the name :D |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2046
|
Posted - 2016.02.05 23:52:21 -
[59] - Quote
pajedas wrote:...How can CCP even consider charging real money for something that was introduced as a way of improving content?...
It's not to improve content, it's to improve cashflow. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2048
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 09:59:14 -
[60] - Quote
Samsara Toldya wrote:Shova'k wrote: also why are the 2 planetary interaction skill except from extraction? those are prolly 2 of the most desirable skills to get rid of lol 0_o
Build 6 PI farms, remove SP (skills only needed to create the farm, not to operate it!), move SP to your alt, build 5 PI farms (damn diminishing returns), repeat. There are other skills which offer this kind of abuse, let's see how long it takes for CCP to exclude them vom SP extraction, too.
If this is possible then that's plain stupid and zhould be viewed as an exploit. In design terms I'd say it's a sign of a flawed mechanic once you have to dtart recoding for 'special' cases. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2054
|
Posted - 2016.02.06 22:21:23 -
[61] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Now this turd is going live, remember what it said at the bottom of the original blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for nowWhy let folks give whole toons away for a measly 2 plex when we can ream them dry on 500k packets
They say you can't polish a turd but you really can...of course, that means you just end up with a shiny turd.... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2055
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 11:09:46 -
[62] - Quote
Tau Phoenix wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:Now this turd is going live, remember what it said at the bottom of the original blog. Oh, and one last note on the Bazaar, it won't go anywhere for nowWhy let folks give whole toons away for a measly 2 plex when we can ream them dry on 500k packets They say you can't polish a turd but you really can...of course, that means you just end up with a shiny turd.... No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter .
The y could name the next developer to join CCP Truffle....and just not tell them why :D |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2055
|
Posted - 2016.02.07 14:52:12 -
[63] - Quote
Shova'k wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote:No. You Can't polish a Turd! But you can roll it in Glitter . actually you can mythbusters proved turds can be polished much like this pile of crap system :P
So mythbusters proved me right, you just end up with a shiny turd :D |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2058
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 11:01:49 -
[64] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Zozoll Neblyn wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Good thing it will not look like a extremely overpriced f2p paywall in a subscription now. Now it will look like an extremely insane overprised f2p paywall in a subscription game. Good job! The result would be that the game doesn't get unbalanced by it. Nobody who isn't super rich is going to be willing to buy enough injectors to "win". Maybe get a few weeks ahead without waiting. But it's not a situation where, if you don't pay, you lose. Not even a situation where refusing to pay puts you at a significant disadvantage. If the price were like $50.00 for a 80 m SP character, then you'd have to pay or you might as well not bother to play. But at $1890.00 I think it's a safe bet you won't get gank swarmed by an bunch of 80m SP pay players who started last week. Not unless a Harvard Fraternity gets into Eve, or something. I never said anything about pay2win. After you got the basic skills SP just gives you more options, but not more "win". I always criticized the appearance of this feature as a ridiculous paywall to new players who are used to such things from free2play titles. So your argument is basically that the price for packets is so ridiculous that no sane new player will perceive it as a regular paywall? In this case they may just ignore it, but then you cant claim this feature has anything to do with new players. It's just some toy for old rich players.
Ye Gods, I'm agreeing with a CODE member...it feels so wrong...yet it feels so right... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2060
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 13:06:57 -
[65] - Quote
Nuclear Nut Zack wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I did not like or approve of the Character Bazaar when it was suggested, nor do I like it now.
I think that CCP can and should have found other ways to reduce 'game illegal' buying and selling of characters etc.
The same goes for PLEX - can't be bothered to play and earn isk in-game so I will just buy it with real life money - Bah!
For every cash rich new player who can buy skill points to get ahead, I wonder how many cash poor new players will think, 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun?
On the other hand, if PLEX and the Character Bazaar didn't exist, how many new players would look at subscription prices or training times, think 'sod this' and go elsewhere for their gaming fun? I know I would have.
On the other other hand (hmmm, too much time in the nuclear physics lab maybe...) /i didn't know that either PLEX or the character bazaar existed but liked the game for what it was and /i stayed.
I still think it is the NPE that's the problem, not the skill system. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2063
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 16:06:42 -
[66] - Quote
Suede wrote:...
Money For Old Rope
CCP Should change there name
...
'Bite size Brains' has a nice ring to it... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2070
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 14:14:07 -
[67] - Quote
Berrice Silf wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Berrice Silf wrote:I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.
Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.
At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ???? February 17, the 9th was only a prelude. Having more money than the next guyCan you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,. This just gets better all the time, remember the original blog from Rise CCP Rise wrote:We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point. Now we have there new advert saying : Skill Extractors.Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. These skillpoints are loaded into a Skill Injector which can then be sold or traded to other players on the in-game marketplace. So what actually is it, you don't want to be able to respec easily or you can as long as it involves the trusty flexible friend.
Next will be pre-packed skills in the injectors at the required levels to 'fly your dream ship'...just like the new advert says...
Natural extension of this of course is saying 'Meh! Why have skills at all, just let people buy the ships straight off and fly them.' |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
2072
|
Posted - 2016.02.19 09:44:17 -
[68] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Bones Outten wrote:Some people are making statements about this not changing goals. Kinda like:
I did the London to Brighton Cycle run.
I did it on the Train, I guess that's the same yes? Obviously no. But there being a train doesn't stop you from doing the cycle run and enjoying it. And being on the train obviously means you aren't doing the cycle run, but doesn't stop anyone else from doing it. Well, maybe it does for some people here I suppose as evidenced by the fact this logic was even be used. ...
The problem here is in the fact that some people can't afford this hypothetical train to Brighton. And as far as they can tell Brighton must be where all the fun is as you can buy your way there faster. By this thinking you must be missing out on the fun if you can't afford the train ticket and have to slog your way there in the meantime.
Without SP the fun was in the journey, it had to be as there was no other choice. SP trading has turned this journey into an inconvenience for those who can't afford the train tickets but want to get to Brighton at the same time as those who can.
SP trading will change new players (and older players) perception of what EvE is. In my opinion (based on how I play the game) EvE lost something of itself with SP trading and now the genie is out of the bottle it can't get that back. |
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